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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.09.16 17:26:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Jericho Ronin
1. Retreat is a valid part of any combat op. This eliminates that.
2. Hit and runs are also valid forms of combat. Again this eliminates this.
3. Hiding from superior numbers while waiting to be reinforced or until they get bored and leave is another valid form of combat. This eliminates this.
4. Secretly staging and amassing forces for an op is a valid form of combat. This eliminates that.
This removes these and other strategies that require surprise and turns every engagement into a gankfest. Whether it be a corp war or griefers ganking noobs in 0.4 or lower.
AFAIK CCP has no plans for what I am about to suggest but I think many of your issues might be solved with some more options.
For instance, have a module that support cruisers can mount that "hide" a fleet from scanners. Not true cloaking...everything would still be visible. They would just drop off scanners unless the scanning ship was some minimum distance away (say 10 AU). To "semi-cloak" others this way they have to be in your gang and within 20km of the support cruiser doing this. Further, make it so the semi-cloaked ships are nerfed a bit. Say they lose 50% shields when this is done. You can RP it saying their shield output needs to be reduced for the semi-cloak to work and being in a gang and having this done is essentially all the ships in the gang agreeing to this and lowering their shields a bit. This would mean a simple gank from the safespot is harder. The semi-cloaked ships need to take some time to renew their shields (or be willing to go into battle like that) after the support cruiser turns off that module. Further, this brings back skill to scouting. The covert-ops ship can still pop about trying to get close enough to the safespotted ships to pinpoint them. If the scout succeeds and can bring in their forces to the semi-cloaked ships those guys are in trouble with their nerfed shields. The scout now has good reason to work to find these guys and it will still take skill/luck beyond character skills/mods to get the job done. Give and take all around.
Just an idea.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.09.16 17:26:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Jericho Ronin
1. Retreat is a valid part of any combat op. This eliminates that.
2. Hit and runs are also valid forms of combat. Again this eliminates this.
3. Hiding from superior numbers while waiting to be reinforced or until they get bored and leave is another valid form of combat. This eliminates this.
4. Secretly staging and amassing forces for an op is a valid form of combat. This eliminates that.
This removes these and other strategies that require surprise and turns every engagement into a gankfest. Whether it be a corp war or griefers ganking noobs in 0.4 or lower.
AFAIK CCP has no plans for what I am about to suggest but I think many of your issues might be solved with some more options.
For instance, have a module that support cruisers can mount that "hide" a fleet from scanners. Not true cloaking...everything would still be visible. They would just drop off scanners unless the scanning ship was some minimum distance away (say 10 AU). To "semi-cloak" others this way they have to be in your gang and within 20km of the support cruiser doing this. Further, make it so the semi-cloaked ships are nerfed a bit. Say they lose 50% shields when this is done. You can RP it saying their shield output needs to be reduced for the semi-cloak to work and being in a gang and having this done is essentially all the ships in the gang agreeing to this and lowering their shields a bit. This would mean a simple gank from the safespot is harder. The semi-cloaked ships need to take some time to renew their shields (or be willing to go into battle like that) after the support cruiser turns off that module. Further, this brings back skill to scouting. The covert-ops ship can still pop about trying to get close enough to the safespotted ships to pinpoint them. If the scout succeeds and can bring in their forces to the semi-cloaked ships those guys are in trouble with their nerfed shields. The scout now has good reason to work to find these guys and it will still take skill/luck beyond character skills/mods to get the job done. Give and take all around.
Just an idea.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.09.16 20:57:00 -
[3]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I would also like to add that the skills for operating a Black Ops frigate should be high enough that it discourages anyone who doesnt like scanning from ever training it up. Those that do, and are good at it will be a valuable addition to any fleet.
It'd be nice to see Covert Ops frigs in there somewhere. Talk about training a miserable set of skills to L-5 to use one and then not have it good for much. 
Black Ops frigs should be best at system scanning and perhaps Covert Ops ships be fair at it (e.g. they have the advantage of cloaking so they lose efficiency as a system scanner). There are a variety of ways you could go about that (like using less able modules than the Black Ops frig but still a module only they can use) or have different stats for how close it needs to be to get a position fix or be less accurate in its positions fix and so on. ôRegularö ships would be no better at it than they are today. This way you would have a real place for scouts. Ideally a Black Ops frig and Covert Ops frig could work in tandem. Black Ops narrows it down fast and Covert Ops goes in as the warp anchor. I somehow doubt a Black Ops ship will be very durable or offensively dangerous on its own. If you make it so an uncloaked ship has to warp in close to the enemy theyÆll see it appear and engage warp to get away making it very hard for those chasing a group to nail them down (that and/or a few ships blow it out of the sky when it appears all by itself).
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.09.16 20:57:00 -
[4]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I would also like to add that the skills for operating a Black Ops frigate should be high enough that it discourages anyone who doesnt like scanning from ever training it up. Those that do, and are good at it will be a valuable addition to any fleet.
It'd be nice to see Covert Ops frigs in there somewhere. Talk about training a miserable set of skills to L-5 to use one and then not have it good for much.
Black Ops frigs should be best at system scanning and perhaps Covert Ops ships be fair at it (e.g. they have the advantage of cloaking so they lose efficiency as a system scanner). There are a variety of ways you could go about that (like using less able modules than the Black Ops frig but still a module only they can use) or have different stats for how close it needs to be to get a position fix or be less accurate in its positions fix and so on. ôRegularö ships would be no better at it than they are today. This way you would have a real place for scouts. Ideally a Black Ops frig and Covert Ops frig could work in tandem. Black Ops narrows it down fast and Covert Ops goes in as the warp anchor. I somehow doubt a Black Ops ship will be very durable or offensively dangerous on its own. If you make it so an uncloaked ship has to warp in close to the enemy theyÆll see it appear and engage warp to get away making it very hard for those chasing a group to nail them down (that and/or a few ships blow it out of the sky when it appears all by itself).
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.09.16 23:16:00 -
[5]
Originally by: DeFood
With intent to find what however? I will find it VERY ironic if a PvP oriented ship turns out to be the best PvE explorer.
Covert Ops ships are PvP oriented? You're kidding right? Covert Ops ships are scouts...not attack ships. They flat out stink at attack. They are fragile and limited. If you are after a PvP Elite Frig you are MUCH better off going for an interceptor and (almost certainly) an assault frig. The whole point of a Covert Ops ship is to remain hidden...not go mano-y-mano with someone.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.09.16 23:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: DeFood
With intent to find what however? I will find it VERY ironic if a PvP oriented ship turns out to be the best PvE explorer.
Covert Ops ships are PvP oriented? You're kidding right? Covert Ops ships are scouts...not attack ships. They flat out stink at attack. They are fragile and limited. If you are after a PvP Elite Frig you are MUCH better off going for an interceptor and (almost certainly) an assault frig. The whole point of a Covert Ops ship is to remain hidden...not go mano-y-mano with someone.
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